A day in Berlin: The sky steeped in monochrome grey, bustling activity in the streets. Preparations for the Berlin Gallery Weekend are already in the air; the formerly shady area around Potsdamer Straße will present itself in cosmopolitan openness. We meet Nadine Göpfert and Lucas Gutierrez in Göpfert's studio, which is located off the main road in a detached, loft-like building. The doorbell makes it clear that you have arrived at the epicenter of Berlin's creative scene: In addition to the building's owner, artist Thomas Demand, there are names like Konstantin Grcic, Kasper König, and Studio HelloMe, run by Göpfert's partner Till Wiedeck.

Dear Nadine, dear Lucas, let's start with a simple question. What are surfaces?

NADINE GÖPFERT When I decided to study textile and surface design, the subject simply sounded great. Surfaces can be found everywhere, and I was generally very interested in textiles. I like the freedom that the word surface gives you. If I have to define the word surface, I immediately think of something tactile, something I can touch. Beyond that, I think of something that has a visual effect on me. Personally, I am particularly interested in structures and the haptic properties of surfaces. Thus, the surface also becomes a space for reflection for me.

LUCAS GUTIERREZ I feel very connected to your definition of surface. Sometimes surfaces look like the result of a reflection process. As a designer or artist, you have a choice. You can assign properties to a surface on different levels, regardless of the medium. The interpretation of this choice remains with the person who views or touches the surface. Ultimately, you put something out into the world, but the interpretation only happens afterward.

NG Exactly. When it comes to my work, the surface illustrates my thoughts. This, in turn, is then interpreted.

In the German language, the term 'Oberfläche' (surface) tends to have a negative connotation, as it is linked to the concept of 'Oberflächlichkeit' (superficiality). Digitalization may even reinforce this tendency. If I understand you correctly, surfaces always have multiple layers and thus emancipate themselves from the suspicion of superficiality?

NG Definitely. I immediately think of Lucio Fontana's works. There is the surface, but there is always something beneath it.

So the process is inextricably linked to the surface. This could be particularly relevant when considering digital surfaces. It has become so easy to create surfaces that look fantastic.

LG We are in an overwhelmingly visual period of humanity. I therefore feel that we need to train ourselves to better grasp the depth of a digital surface. In textile design, there is a body reference. This is not necessarily present in the digital space; it is obscured. We only see a wafer-thin line, which makes it difficult to perceive the entire process behind it.

NG That's right. A digital surface is very different from a textile one. For me, the perceptible layers are crucial. When you look at a woven textile, you can see the threads. You can even feel them. When you look at a digital surface, you can only perceive a single layer.

So, for you, seeing and feeling the manufacturing process is part of understanding a surface?

NG Exactly. When I think of a digital surface, I find it difficult to perceive the process. However, I also have no idea about it.

LG I think it depends on the output and the medium you're working with. Sometimes the screen is a connecting surface. When I open my laptop, I can either simply work and feel little, or I can use the same screen to connect with my loved ones and feel connected and close. I think screens are the most important objects of this era.

NG So the screen is a means of communication. The question is, can an analog surface also be a means of communication? This, by the way, is also the topic of my next course in Weimar. The course is called Social Fabric, and the students are asked to design a textile that enhances human communication. Nowadays, we are constantly on the phone and communicating in digital spaces, so I found the question of a material medium very interesting.

LG If one wanted to take this connection to the extreme, one could say that we always use objects as an extension of ourselves and communicate through them. We may have forgotten that we make these object decisions, but they are ubiquitous.

NG We agree that every textile, every surface, and all digital surfaces can be a projection and reflection surface, thus constantly sending information.

Information that goes beyond superficiality?

BOTH Yes.

How long do you think it will be before we can touch and feel something haptically in the digital realm?

NG My friend Veronika Aumann, with whom I also studied, has been researching intelligent textiles for several years. She wants to develop textiles that, for example, feel like cashmere but have digital characteristics. I imagine that you could then decide from day to day what color or haptics your trousers should have. You could, for example, change them by programming.

You'd essentially only need a link to the brain that sends you the information "Your pants feel soft," for example. Then the pants wouldn't even need to change in reality.

NG Exactly, or you have an app that lets you control the properties of your trousers.

LG I think this kind of connection will definitely be one of the next steps. Basically, XR (Cross Reality), which is the merging of physical and digital reality, is the basis for VR (Virtual Reality), AR (Augmented Reality), and everything that is augmented. Currently, these technologies are still very much limited to specific areas, for example, experimental gaming. But tendentially, many processes, such as how we look, what we wear, how we consume, are increasingly shifting into the digital space, which, however, is not yet tangible. We have the same with scent: integrating this sense digitally is still extremely difficult.

NG How would that look specifically, then? If I want to buy clothes online, I can not only see them but also touch them?

LG For example.

Essentially, we're always talking about information, coded information. If, for instance, there was a wireless connection between the brain and the internet, and you selected a piece of clothing, you could directly receive the information "cashmere, blue" in the relevant brain region. Then you would feel it without physical contact.

NG Isn't that scary?

LG I think comparable things are already happening. What I mean is digital possession. I find that moment fascinating when you feel that something digital belongs to you, be it an image or a process or social media engagement. Essentially, you're only archiving every form of information, but you still get a dopamine rush from the feeling of possession. Even if these things don't exist, they become real through collective digital action. The value increases because everyone represents themselves digitally. Essentially, no one forces you to experience and share all of this, but sharing is sometimes the only way to feel connected.

Let's take a step back. Once you enter the realm of digitalization, it's hard to get out. That's why I'd like to know how you work. How do you generate ideas for surfaces?

NG For my independent projects, I always start with observations. I observe everyday life, processes, and procedures in society. The next step is working with materials that reflect these observations. I like to work with materials that I find by chance or that are not necessarily intended to be worn. I like the idea of transforming materials. Usually, the process also involves a lot of experimentation. In my last project, for example, it was about the relationship between body and clothing. For some time now, I have observed that we try to adapt our body to clothing and not the other way around. I wanted to change that and therefore developed a collection of standardized pieces whose system is not based on the body but on materiality or the material. Within the collection, all garments are available in tight and loose. However, each of these pieces consists of the same amount of fabric. So each piece has the same value. You can decide for yourself which fit suits you better.

Dear Nadine, let's get to your favorite question. How cool was it that Solange wore your sweater in her video "Cranes in the Sky"?

NADINE GÖPFERT's works appear poetic, playing with expectations and exploring the relationship between clothing, people, and society on various levels. Göpfert studied textile and surface design at the Weißensee Kunsthochschule Berlin and the Gerrit Rietveld Academie in Amsterdam. Today, she lives and works in Berlin, where she undertakes commissions from well-known clients such as Nike and the Première Vision fashion fair in the fields of interior, textile, and fashion design. Additionally, she is a guest lecturer at the Bauhaus University Weimar. Her biggest coup to date: Solange Knowles wore a top she designed in her music video "Cranes in the Sky."

NG (laughs) It was very cool. When I saw the email with the subject "Solange x Nadine Göpfert," I couldn't believe it was real at first. Actually, Solange wanted to wear the sweater at the Met Gala. Of course, I thought the idea was great, but I was honest and told the stylist that Solange wouldn't be happy with it. The sweater is far too heavy and warm. She thanked me for my honesty and told me that we could cooperate in the future. I thought then that I had missed this great opportunity. A few months later, she actually wrote again and asked if she could borrow the sweater for a shoot. It didn't get any more specific. A few weeks later, I think it was on a weekend, my boyfriend woke me up and said, "Wake up, wake up, I just saw this video. Look!" Of course, I was totally euphoric all day.

So many emotions because of a sweater.

LG It's exactly as we described it at the beginning. Sometimes a surface generates such a strong sensual output, driven by the way it was created.

NG Absolutely. I'm always afraid that people will only see the surface and not the concept behind it. I always want to explain the context and the story behind it. But when Solange wears a sweater in a video, of course, no one asks: Wait, what exactly was the concept of this sweater?

Perhaps not in that intellectual way, but both the stylist and Solange felt something when they looked at that surface. Of course, they don't feel your concept, but they feel more, or something different, than with an average sweater.

NG That's true. You can also see the concept of the sweater. I think good design work needs good concepts. You can tell when work has no layers.

Back to you, Lucas. I have a practical question for you. How do you create the visualizations and surfaces for your audiovisual performances? Are they generated, do you morph images, or is there some crazy artificial intelligence behind it?

LG You might think so, but basically, I build a structure that helps me combine video and audio in real time. First, I develop visual elements. To do this, I experiment with colors, structures, in 2D and 3D, and so on. It always depends on what tools and programs I use for it. Then I compose the music for it. On stage, I then only navigate these elements. You could also call it a real-time experiment. It's like I'm cooking live in front of people.

LUCAS GUTIERREZ studied industrial design in his home country of Argentina at the National University of Córdoba. Over the years, he developed into a visual artist. He works both physically-sculpturally and digitally. Influenced by his design background, he particularly enjoys interrupting processes and disrupting routines. Gutierrez also works as a video artist and Visual Jockey (VJ); he describes his live performances as a live research experience, comparable to "cooking in front of an audience." For the project The New Infinity of the Berliner Festspiele, for example, he developed a projection that was shown in a mobile dome on Mariannenplatz in Kreuzberg. Gutierrez was a guest lecturer at the Weißensee Kunsthochschule Berlin and the University of the Arts Berlin.

NG Can I ask a question too?

Of course.

NG What topics influence your work?

LG In my performances, I try to create a connection between video and audio through technology. When it comes to my sculptures, I'm interested in themes like dystopias and fears that have emerged in recent years. I like the idea of disturbing and thereby increasing the value of an object. I like how objects can stimulate emotions and fantasies.

NG That reminds me of the first time I saw Malevich's "Black Square" in Moscow. The paint has cracks now, and I immediately thought: There's something underneath!

That is the perfect metaphor for the entire topic of surfaces.